When I moved to Massachusetts recently I quit my membership with KnuckleUp gym in Atlanta. I stood by KnuckleUp for two years, even though their gym flooded and never re-opened and I had to spend countless hours commuting to Roswell just to train. I also acted as a substitute instructor without asking for anything in return. When I finally left, I had a pretty horrible experience at the hands of KnuckleUp’s business partner: ASF international.
I’m a martial artist and I move around a lot–so I’m used to dealing with these contract companies. But ASF is far and away the worst. A quick search of ripoff.com will yield dozens of horror stories from people who have been victimized by this company. KnuckleUp management said––not to me, but where I could hear it––that ASF has an informal policy in which they never allow membership cancellations.
ASF is like Comcast: they don’t honor contracts and think that their customers are slaves. Only ASF is worse: Comcast at least provides a service, ASF makes their money by NOT providing a service. Every piece of paper work they lose, every clerical error they make, is another month of payments they try to extract from your bank account. Companies like this need to be dealt with aggressively and SHUT DOWN. They are only allowed to exist because we, the people, are too lazy and too beaten down to fight back.
Here’s what we can do:
1) I will never again join a gym that works with ASF. There are other companies that do the exact same thing and are far more pleasant to work with.
2) I filed a formal complaint with the FTC. EVERYONE needs to do this. The FTC looks for patterns and if half the people ASF have victimized did this, the FTC would intervene.
3) DO NOT speak to ASF on the phone. Use e-mail. Not only should customers not have to spend 30 minutes on hold, but ASF are liars and every communication from them must be in writing so that they can be held to it.
4) You don’t have to tolerate automatic debits. Call your bank and get them cancelled. Hell, the bank WANTS your money to stay in the bank. This will turn the tables on ASF and force THEM to deal with YOU.
5) Below is a transcript of my e-mail correspondence with ASF (Names and faces have been changed to protect the innocent as well as the guilty). I am reposting it here to show that A) these companies try to bluff you into paying them and that B) standing firm by the terms of your contract does get results.
Before I go on, let me explain my specific situation: My gym told me they wanted a copy of my lease as well as an out of state driver’s license as proof that I moved. This in itself is ridiculous: I only signed a three-year contract because I was told it was void if I moved more than 25 miles–not if I took up residence in another state. Furthermore, requesting a driver’s license is an obvious stall tactic: you can’t get a driver’s license until you have a lease or a utility bill. So the whole system is set up so that ASF can get something for nothing.
I’m only moved as a student and I don’t want to claim residency in Massachusetts. I explained this to KnuckleUP and they told me I could send in a student ID instead of a driver’s license. ASF refused to honor this. Here’s what happened:
From: Anonymousrex@anonymousrex.com
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 7:39 PM
To: membersupport@asfint.com
Subject: membership cancellation, Account # 555555
To Whom it May Concern:
I have recently received an e-mail from ASF refusing to process my cancellation paperwork. I have spoken repeatedly with ASF regarding the terms of our relationship. ASF representatives stated that the terms of the agreement are determined by Knuckle Up Fitness and NOT by ASF.
Due to special circumstances, the management stated that I could terminate my contract by submitting a lease and a student ID. ASF has refused to honor this agreement. It should be noted that prior to this conversation with the management, I had never heard of ASF and did not have access to my account number.
I have spoken with ASF and I have spoken with Knuckleup. Now I need ASF to communicate with Knuckleup in order to process the cancellation.
Furthermore:
-I have never possessed a written contract with Knuckleup or ASF. In fact, I have no evidence that such a contract even exists.
-When I joined Knuckleup I was told verbally that cancellation involved moving a certain distance from my current residence–NOT taking up residency in another state and NOT acquiring a driver’s license.
-No one involved doubts that I am living in Boston. Therefore, ASF is knowingly attempting to charge me for a service, which they know cannot and will not be provided.
I hope that this can be cleared up without any unpleasantness. I was a good member of Knuckleup for as long as I could be and I would like to keep my relationship pleasant with my former gym. If anything further is needed, please reach me through e-mail or call me at 555-555-5555.
-Anonymous Rex
——————-
From: Evil Corporate Goon <evil_goon@asfint.com>
Date: Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: membership cancellation, Account # 7911796
To: anonymousrex@gmail.com
Dear Anonymousrex,
ASF International has been handling cancellations for Knuckle UP Fitness. I do apologize but in order for us to be able to process the account for relocation, a newly issued driver’s license or a state identification card must be provided. Unfortunately there are no exceptions. There will also be a 30 day notice starting from the time we receive valid proof of relocation. Billing will continue until these terms have been met.
Thank you.
___________________
Dear Evil Corporate Goon;
This response is unacceptable.
1) You have not signed your e-mail or identified yourself in any way. This is a sign of disrespect towards a customer.
2) Secondly, ASF employees told me by phone, in July, that Knuckle Up Fitness and NOT ASF creates the terms of cancellation. Either you, or the representative I spoke to in July is lying. Knuckle Up has approved my cancellation and what type of documents are necessary to complete the transaction. It is obvious to anyone that ASF is deliberately hiding behind form letters and protocol in order to charge for a service that is not being provided.
3) I do not have a copy of any contract with either Knuckle Up or ASF. If such a contract exists, I demand that it be produced and sent to me either by fax or mail. If ASF is not able to produce such a contract then their continued withdrawal from my bank account is illegal.
4) If my account is not cancelled and if a contract is not produced, I am going to work my bank to treat these charges as fraudulent. Furthermore, I am in contact with several other former Knuckle Up members who are interested in pooling resources to organize a lawsuit against Knuckle Up and ASF. Obviously, this not how I would like to end my relationship with Knuckle Up. Please take my request seriously and work with me to resolve this problem.
Sincerely,
Anonymous Rex
_______________________
We will request a copy of the agreement from our archives and once we receive it, we will be glad to forward it to you.
If there are any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us.
Thank you.
Evil Corporate Goon
ASF International
Customer Service Department
1-800-525-8967
–––––––––––––––––––––––––
Dear Evil Corporate Goon,
Thank you. This is the first time I have felt anyone from ASF is actually listening to me.
Anonymous Rex
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Dear Evil Corporate Goon,
I received a voice message from ASF today asking me to return their call. Because ASF disagrees with both me and Knuckle Up Fitness as to the terms of our contract and because I have still not seen any contract between myself and ASF I think it is best if all communications continue in writing.
Whatever this new matter is, please communicate it via either mail or e-mail. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Anonymous Rex
———————
Dear Evil Corporate Goon,
I am still receiving bills from ASF but I have not received the contract that you said would be produced from your archives. Is there actually such a contract? Has any effort been made to contact Knuckle Up regarding the agreement we had? I do not see how litigation can be avoided if ASF continues to bill me but refuses to communicate.
Sincerely,
Anonymous Rex
–––––––––––––––––––––––
The copy of the agreement was mailed to you on 10/9/08, so you should receive soon. I do apologize about the billing, but ASF as the billing processor must continue to bill you until the account has been approved to be cancelled.
Thank you.
Evil Corporate Goon
ASF International
Cancellation Department
640 Plaza Dr Suite 300
Highlands Ranch, CO 80129
1-800-525-8967
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Dear Evil Corporate Goon,
I have received a photocopy of the contract. Thank you for your help with this matter.
The contract specifically states that cancellation can occur if the student relocates 25 miles from an affiliated school. (In fact, this text has been underlined on the copy you sent to me.) I have moved 1000 miles from an affiliated school. It then states, “Student agrees to provide proof of move requested by school at time of cancellation.”
NOWHERE on this contract does it say anything at all about requiring an out of state driver’s license! The school requested that I provide a lease and a BU student ID–which I faxed to ASF in August.
ASF has not only not followed the terms of this contract, but has DIRECTLY INTERFERED in the terms of the contract as described between myself and KnuckleUp.
As such, I ask that all payments charged after I provided this documentation as well as late fees be dropped.
Thank you,
Anonymous Rex
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
ASF International is in full control of the cancellations and we decide what proofs are valid or not. We only accept a newly issued driver’s license or a state identification card, so once we receive the valid documentation, we will follow. The account must remain current throughout the entire process.
Thank you.
Evil Corporate Goon
ASF International
Cancellation Department
640 Plaza Dr Suite 300
Highlands Ranch, CO 80129
1-800-525-8967
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
The contract that I signed clearly states that the requirements are determined by the school and not by ASF. ASF representatives have confirmed this over the phone as have the staff at KnuckleUp. If ASF was really in full control of the cancellations, that would have been stated to me in July when I asked about the cancellation policy and we would not be having this conversation. Instead, you are the first person who has ever claimed that ASF is in full control of the cancellations and legally I see nothing to back that claim up. At this point I consider ASF to be in material breach of contract.
Thank you.
Anonymous Rex
––––––––––––––––––––––
Send the signature page to your lease with both yours and the landlord’s signatures and then we will follow up. We will honor the date of 9/5/08 but once we receive the signature page to your lease, you will be liable for the August and September dues per the 30 day notice.
Thank you.
Evil Corporate Goon
ASF International
Cancellation Department
640 Plaza Dr Suite 300
Highlands Ranch, CO 80129
1-800-525-8967
Adam R said,
December 18, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Please ASF is impossible, MY gym faxed the 30day notice to cancel with a copy of my new lease in August, In OCt they made another debit but instead of it saying the gym name is just said ASF international. I called them and they stated they never reviced notice, and said to fax to cancel dept, I did a month later I get a bill plus $50.00 in fees, They denied my notice because, I did not send their cancel form inn with my fax, the customer service never said anything about the form, I figured to send to $100 for my last 2 months of a non-renewal contract with the cancel form, Its been 2 weeks and check not cashed and now they are adding more fees…. Customer service is no help. So all the years of mailing stuff, One company looses 2 letters from one person,
WOW…
anonymousrex said,
December 18, 2008 at 7:35 pm
You need to report this to the FTC. If enough people report ASF, the government will eventually intervene. Everyone canceling service with ASF needs to first call their bank and have the automatic debits shut off. ASF will never negotiate if they can take as much money as they like straight from your bank account.
Kris G said,
April 5, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I had to deal with ASF as well. Unfortunately Alliance Gym in Atlanta, one of the greatest places to train period, has decided to use this shit service. When i signed up with alliance ASF was in no way associated with Alliance. However since being with Alliance i have decided to cancel contract being i h ave moved an unacceptable distance to travel to class. I was told by Alliance to take it up with ASF. I called to make cancellation and was told the same thing you were told Rex. However, i asked for contract/documentation to be sent to me saying that the contract i signed was in any way related to ASF. ASF is trying to put me under contractual bindings in which i never signed/agreed to! Not only is ASF a scheming company that wants you to pay for a service you can’t use, but they are idiots who dont know common contractual law. I never signed a contract with ASF’s involvement. After they refused to work with me even after saying “i cannot afford the payments anymore, i am simply broke and your debting my account is costing me hundreds of dollars” they refused to cancel. They are crooks. I finally made a fraudulent claim through my bank and they still try to debt my account consistently. DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING WITH ASF IN THE CONTRACT, YOU WILL REGRET IT. They are the absolute worst company ever and need to be put out of business.
anonymousrex said,
April 5, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Good job cutting off the debits. Don’t forget to file a complaint with the FTC. If they continue to harass you, tell them they are in material breach of contract. That made them back off quickly in my case.
We should really step up the war on ASF. There has been increasing media coverage of corporate corruption. We should try to get a major news piece on these people. We could start with a website like http://www.asfsucks.com.
Brandon said,
April 22, 2009 at 11:43 pm
I am dealing with them now! My sons karate instructor only made the set class times about 1/2 the time. We talked to them about 3 times in about 9 months about this. Finally we were told they could no longer promise the class times (one on one training). We asked to be released from the contract but was handed a number and was told that ASF handled the cancellations and they would make it hard on us. After calling and trying to figure out what ASF is the instructor called us back and told us he would help us get out of the contract. After that call ASF called me and offered me a 60% buy out option (4600 dollars). I laughed and said no. Then I asked where all that money was going? They told me that they could not disclose that info. I said well if it is going back to the instructor maybe I can work something out with him (sarcastically). I guess they called him and told him because he told me that I needed to keep my nose out of things and he would handle it. I told him I could see paying what ASF would lose but I knew that it wasn’t 60%. He said that he appreciated my intelligence and ended the call. Now everyone is avoiding me. I really dont know what the next step is. I think ASF and most contract holders(not all are) are in it together and out to prey on the innocent! How does stopping payment drafts affect your credit? I am in the military and they kinda frown upon not paying your bills.
anonymousrex said,
April 23, 2009 at 1:55 am
Hi Brandon,
Let me preface this by saying I’m not a lawyer. But if enough money is on the line, you might want to get one.
1) The most important thing is that you dig up your contract and read it carefully. I bet there is no 60% buy out clause anywhere in the contract. In my experience, ASF feels that the contract only applies to you and that they can make up whatever rules they want. In fact, I think they rarely know what the contract says as they seem to have different versions for different gyms.
2) File a complaint with the FTC. It won’t help you personally, but it will help in the long run toward shutting down ASF forever.
3) Stop the draft payments. The reason everyone is avoiding you is because they already have your money! Stopping the drafts is not the same as refusing to pay your bill. What it does do is force ASF to reason with you. After fighting with ASF for several months, I finally did reach an agreement with them and wrote them a check. (It was for far less than they originally wanted though). The fact that they offered you a buy out means there is nothing intrinsic to the contract about draft payments. I’m sure they would have happily taken your check for $4600.
4) The karate instructor has committed material breach of contract. That means you didn’t get what you paid for. Furthermore, both the instructor and ASF have acknowledged this material breach of contract. If they hadn’t, they wouldn’t have offered you a buy out.
Once you stop the drafts and explain that they are in breach of contract, they will probably change their tune. But if it goes to court it will ultimately depend on what your contract says. My prediction is that ASF will make some sort of arrangement before that happens. After a couple of months without their drafts, ASF started calling me and I got to put *them* on hold.
5) Never join a gym that uses ASF again. The best gym I ever joined took post-dated checks three months at a time. All honest instructors should do this instead of using a middle-man. It’s cheaper and more honest. The only way ASF can justify taking their cut is by offering a barrier between mediocre gyms and irate customers.
As a martial artist myself, this guy seems like a pretty lousy instructor. How are students going to learn about discipline and honesty from this clown?
Sean Knox said,
May 1, 2009 at 3:20 am
I have quite an interesting story. I went to Knuckle Up Fitness in Duluth, GA to try a sample class and potetially register. After the class I had an extended conversation with the general manager, Mike Mashburn, about my options for membership. After being presented different pricing options for 1, 2,and 3 year contracts, I was presented the opton to cancel my contract at any time for $200’s. I discussed the fact that this was oly detrimental if I cancelled in less than a year and that the 2 year ontract didn’t even creat any value what-so-ever. He said, ” Yes,” that it didn’t make much sense, but that’s how it was. I asked about “other fees” and such and he reassured me that he would write the total that I would owe over three years on the contract so there would be no misunderstanding. Turnes out that the “$200.00 cancelletion” doesn’t exist and when I went to enact it, I was shown that it wasn’t on the contract but the full amount owed was. They offered to settle for 75% of the remainder (more than a year.) It never even occurred to me that it didn’t mention the cancellation because he had so clearly defined it, AND everything else was so clearly defined. This is simply fraud. The worst part is that Mike Mashburn was unavailable because he had been fired for “impropper business practices” according to Knuckle Up the corporate office representative. Knowing why they fired him and knowing my qualm, they refused to accept my cancellation in January 2009. I have 2 additional contracts (under the same terms) for my wife and son. I also attempted to cancel these in January. Upon numerous refusals of cancellation, I continued to to pay A little more than $175 per month for the past three months. I figure that I owe them about $75.00 according to my agreement. I actually had to get my bank to alter my account in a special way to stop the automatic payments which I already told the bnilling company to discontinue. I’ll pay what I owe, but that’s all. If these people don’t honor the agreement which induced my membership, I assure you I will use every legal means available to correct this wrongdoing. if there is anyone who is owed compensation, from this company for money stolen through improper business practices, I encourage you to join me in a class-action suit. Please e-mail me @ “knoxoppportunities@yahoo.com” .
anonymousrex said,
May 1, 2009 at 4:32 am
Man, ASF is gonna be sorry they ever tangled with me. The number of people reading this blog everyday goes up and up.
Sean,
You’re right, that is just fraud. If they said you could buy out of the contract for $200 that’s a verbal contract–it still holds even if its not on paper. If the total money you want is less than $2000 you can take Knuckle Up and/or ASF to small claims court. You don’t need a lawyer, just go to your nearest courthouse and they have a booklet you need to fill out. If you win, you can make them pay any court fees on top of this.
Of course once they get served court papers they will almost certainly try to settle with you. In fact, if you just tell them you plan to sue, they will probably cave.
I trained at KnuckleUp for two years and I like a lot of their trainers. But I am totally disgusted by ASF and how Knuckle Up has used them as a shield. This is part of a new corporate culture in which consumers are not worthy of respect or honesty–it is groups like ASF that caused the financial crisis that the country and the world are now in. Suing groups like ASF isn’t just about money, it’s our duty as Americans.
kjg said,
June 3, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I have also having issues with ASF at this time. When I joined a boxing club called Title Boxing I was told by the OWNER that because I was moving in two months to Africa that all I needed to do was call and ASF, explain my situation and then send them “proof” that I was moving. Obviously that would be easy enough as we already had papers from my husband’s company stating that we were moving to Africa.
Now I’m finding out that it’s not as easy as that. It’s been about 6 weeks and I’ve sent 5 different papers as “proof”. Still no word from them. Each time I’ve faxed the papers as we’re leaving so soon and requested specifically that they needed to call me if the “proof” was not sufficient. I still haven’t received a call but from follow up calls I did learn that they supposedly “sent” a letter the first time. Every time I call back they still say it’s being “processed”. I call BS on that one. I’ve already advised my three other friends who are joining the boxing club to only pay up front and NEVER sign a contract that is held by ASF International. They are further spreading the word about never holding a contract with ASF International.
I am taking Rex’s advice from here on out and sending emails so I have written copy of what is discussed. Thanks!
Tony said,
July 23, 2009 at 2:11 pm
So the Olympus Athletic Club in Chantilly, VA closed without notice – literally we showed up and repo men were cleaning out the place… There was only a phone number left on the door – for ASF. They have not even answered the phone in the last few days and have not returned calls. Going to try the email route – thanks for all the advice!
Tony said,
July 23, 2009 at 2:16 pm
The following is on their “Client Login” site (www.asfint.com):
“I welcome your ideas regarding any new products or services you would like to see us offer. Also appreciated are any comments you may have, both positive and critical, about any of our people, products, services or technologies. We strive for excellence.
Robert J. Riches – President, ASF International”
Email is president@asfint.com
Doubt it will get a response but worth a try.
anonymous said,
August 3, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Sean, I happen to know Mike Mashburn very well. Since Mike was fired from Knuckle-Up, he briefly worked at No Excuses Athletics in Suwanee, GA, where he was also fired. Last I heard he was planning on opening up a karate studio in Duluth. A common problem every place he’s worked for has is that they fail to do a background check on him. He is a convicted felon with a quite a record. He was sentenced to 9 years in prison, but got out after 4. He’s been charged with a number of things including burglary (a felony charge because he robbed several gun stores), domestic aviolence, possession with intent to sell and more. Not sure if this will help you in your battle with Knuckle Up (they recently went out of business). Good luck. Anyone else that deals with him, use caution. He has his good qualities, but he also has a record.
CBilli said,
August 4, 2009 at 9:23 pm
My issue has been going on for 2 years now. I attended a complimentary class at the Roswell Road location in Georgia in December 2006. After class, Matt, talked with me about joining. I made it clear I was only interested in joining the Midtown Atlanta location. Per Matt, they were doing a pre-sale for the Midtown location scheduled to open January 2, 2007. I thought okay, I’ll join.
January 2, 2007, call the number for Midtown, get transferred to Roswell…minor problems, gym will open on the 3rd of January.
January 3, 2007…gym will open on the 4th of January.
January 4, 2007…gym will open on the 5th of January.
January 5, 2007…probably won’t open before Monday, January 8th.
No longer interested, typed up a letter, mailed certified to the cancellation address to ASF, post marked January 5th. February 2007, DuVera Financial debits my account. I contact them via email. Told they never received cancellation, faxed return receipt to them along with cancellation letter, told everything was in order. Cancelled debit to DuVera.
June 2007…I see a debit for ASF International (Knuckle Up)…went straight to bank, cancelled the debit, explaining I had previously cancelled the automatic debit under DuVera Financial. ASF began sending mail. Contacted them, told again they had not received cancellation notice. Once more, sent a copy of the return receipt and cancellation letter. Now being told I didn’t cancel in time. When I sent information about cancelling contracts based on Ga law, was told, that only applied to a Fitness Center or Health Club, not a martial arts school. Finally in October 2007, I sent a letter to the Ga Governor’s Office of Consumer Affairs. The consumer affairs office sent a letter to some parent company in Washington, D.C. and forwarded a copy of the complaint to ASF. Never heard another word until Knuckle Up attempted to debit my account in March of 2009 and again in April 2009 using a different business id(accordint to my bank). Both debits were rejected. Now I have just received a collection notice from Palomar Associates on behalf of Knuckle Up asking for the 2 year amount in full. I’ve sent Palomar a letter of dispute, but have since learned that Palomar is the collection company for DuVera. Final step is a letter to the FTC, wish I had thought of this earlier.
Another kicker is I didn’t even know the Mid-town location has shut down. I never sign contracts of these type and I do not allow recurring automatic debits of any type from my bank account.
bouncybounce said,
August 19, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Thank you for posting this. I am consulting my lawyer tomorrow afternoon. bev
Jbrand said,
August 21, 2009 at 10:18 pm
I’m very impress in a negative way how this company is doing bussiness. Just trying to rip off people even when they have a medical reason. How is that possible that if you have a medical reason and out or unable to use the facility for at least a year will not count as a reason. Like many people here I’m tired of dealing with this problem and no finding a solution.
For 5 months I fought with the billing company to let them understand that in their contract very clearly said that if you are permanently disable or the person is not able to use the facility for 45 consecutive days for any medical reason membership can be cancel without any penalty. I did find a way that one of them would read that part of the contract and find out for himself what i was saying. They asked me for a letter from my doctor and even all that was not enough.3 years after I got a letter from a collection agency saying that i need to pay. WHAT THAT F%$%!!!
I believe that if we get together and found the way to show this company that this is not acceptable.
If any body has any idea please lets not wait any longer.
anonymousrex said,
August 22, 2009 at 12:52 am
Hi Jbrand,
In this case, ASF is in clear material breach of contract and I think that you should sue. It is very simple to file a small claims case without a lawyer and it will probably only cost you about $40. Go to your local court house and say you would like to speak to their small claims clerk. He or she will give you some paperwork. Go home, fill it out, and make a packet. Include your contract, your doctor’s note, and any record of your dealings with ASF in the packet. Make three copies of the packet. Bring two copies back to the courthouse and keep one for your records. After you pay a processing fee they will serve ASF with papers. Once that happens, you will get a date in court. ASF can show up and fight you, but probably they will either just concede or try to settle with you out of court (After all, they’re the one’s who broke contract.)
If you want to sue for more than a few thousand dollars you should get a lawyer. You could claim that ASF has caused you pain and suffering and falsely damaged your credit history through their breach of contract. In the long run, you are right that someone should organize a class action lawsuit. But first start with small claims court.
former ASF Emloyee said,
October 7, 2009 at 7:08 pm
wow. Awful stories!
former ASF Employee said,
October 7, 2009 at 7:14 pm
I worked there for many years and always hated the way the members were handled when it came to cancellations. Basically, a member has very few options to cancel and even if there is a valid reason to cancel, if can takes months to get them to stop drafting your account. Always read the small print and never let a billing company draft your account. ….especially ASF.
Dave said,
November 6, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Hello everyone I am just beginning to deal with ASF and trying to cancel my account. I used the email route as a paper trail and I will be going to small claims court if things happen like they did with the rest of you all on here. Lets get this dishonorable company out of an honorable practice of martial arts.
Thanks again,
Dave